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Previous Next Up Topic Cosmology / Alternative Cosmology / The Four Forces and Dark Matter (3609 hits)
By Mike Petersen Date 2009-03-13 13:22
I would like to put forth some points to be addressed concerning the four forces and dark matter.

1. The strong and weak nuclear forces operate over a limited range.  Indeed, the SM says they are caused by the exchange of particles.

2. Gravity has been theorized to operate via the exchange of particles called "gravitons".  If this is true (and we don't know this for sure), then it is reasonable to assume that this force operates over a limited range as well, albeit one vastly greater than that of the strong and weak nuclear forces.

3. Electromagnectic force ... I am unclear on this one.  Exchange of particles?  A field only?  Limited range, or infinite, dropping off with distance?  Also, has anyone measured the rate of acceleration a body undergoes when being "pulled in" by a magnetic field?  (e.g. iron filings dropped into a vaccuum container with a magnet at the bottom) Is there any relationship with how gravity works in this regard?  Is there an electromagnetic constant regarding its attraction capabilities?

4. Given the points (and suppositions) above, does the idea of postulating dark matter's existence even make sense?  Assuming that gravity works over great distances the same way it works over more "local" distances could be a major fallacy.  Instead of trying to figure out just what gravity is, astronomers blithely assume the existence of dark matter halos surrounding most galaxies and clusters of galaxies.  It brings to mind the story of "The Emporer's New Clothes".

Comments?

Regards, Mike Petersen
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-03-14 20:08
2. Gravity has been theorized to operate via the exchange of particles called "gravitons".  If this is true (and we don't know this for sure), then it is reasonable to assume that this force operates over a limited range as well, albeit one vastly greater than that of the strong and weak nuclear forces.

This was one of the things that interested me at the CCC2 conference. Tom Van flandan (RIP) gave a talk about this. Whilst i was not convinced about his "pushing gravity" theory I was thought provoked into this graviton stuff.
in a rotating galaxy, one requires gravity to provide the centripetal force. a Galaxy is  100,000 light years across? So Tom argued (I think) that by the time the gravitons arrived the stars etc would have moved on in their motion - unless gravitons travelled faster than light. So they could not provide a centripetal force considering the delay.
Pity he went out on a limb with man made structures on Mars.
cheers,
lyndon
By Jade Annand Date 2009-03-17 04:43
lyndonashmore said:

So Tom argued (I think) that by the time the gravitons arrived the stars etc would have moved on in their motion - unless gravitons travelled faster than light.


I've seen his argument on that vis-a-vis the Sun and how its apparent direction would change by the time gravitons got to a planet.

From what I understand of the "regular" graviton argument, gravitons create fields; they are not responsible for direct interactions, so Tom's main argument does not necessarily hold any water. That said, there would seem to be a speed limit on how fast a gravity field could follow an accelerating mass. If that proved not to be the case (where would we find such an experimental setup, though?), then perhaps Tom's idea might have some merit.

I can understand why he might find his own idea compelling - it sets up two media, like space and air carrying light and sound - the sound is limited by the speed of the air. Finding that the medium of gravity has a much higher permissible speed than the medium of photons and particles would allow for some equivalent of a faster-than-light "jet" (in the metaphor, propeller planes are limited to the speed of air), probably replete with "light boom". Fun, but unlikely :)

lyndonashmore said:

Pity he went out on a limb with man made structures on Mars.


Yes, seriously. I've hardly ever seen anyone with so much of a fetish for Cydonia. It was like his own personal Elvis sighting. It really did detract from pretty much anything else he said, which is too bad, because he at the very least seemed to have a natural grasp of orbital mechanics and some of its interesting implications.
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-03-17 19:05
No, gravitons do not create fields or at least I don't think so.
I thought the whole idea of graviton exchange was to explain gravitational fields.
Just as photon exchange explains electrostatic repulsion.
Ergo, How long does it take for the gravitons to arrive in a galaxy situation?
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-03-17 19:06
No, gravitons do not create fields or at least I don't think so.
I thought the whole idea of graviton exchange was to explain gravitational fields.
Just as photon exchange explains electrostatic repulsion.
Ergo, How long does it take for the gravitons to arrive in a galaxy situation?
Previous Next Up Topic Cosmology / Alternative Cosmology / The Four Forces and Dark Matter (3609 hits)

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