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Previous Next Up Topic Cosmology / Alternative Cosmology / new arxiv (12531 hits)
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-09-04 18:12
Whats the thought on this?
A new Arxiv.
Worth posting on or not?
http://www.vixra.org/
Cheers,
Lyndon
By Jade Annand Date 2009-09-04 21:33
Hard to say. I saw Hilton and Eric referring to it in last month's ACG newsletter out of frustration of the way arXiv categorizes papers and the like.

This was what they had to say about arXiv and viXra in July:

ACG said:

This newsletter has always followed the protocol of using arXiv as the standard reference set for currently published results in astrophysics and related fields. There is little choice in the matter. Unfortunately, due to restrictive censorship by the administrators of arXiv (the faceless, nameless, and apparently speechless “moderators”), our analysis is being skewed. The number of authors being blacklisted by arXiv is rising alarmingly, and combined with their practice of relegating papers to inappropriate (and seldom referenced) categories, has brought about an unhealthy imbalance in representative viewpoints. The reality is that there are in fact many more discordant or anomalous results being presented than we find on arXiv. This is not scientific best practice. Physicist Phil Gibbs has recently launched an alternative online science archive called viXra, and it can be found at http://vixra.org/ . It will succeed only to the degree that it is supported by the science community. We shall be watching it closely while we continue to struggle with arXiv. Thank you Oliver Manuel for bringing viXra to our attention.


The Archive Freedom site has a list of authors and their "ban category". Are these problems isolated or endemic?

arXiv defends its endorsement policy here. The stated policies look strict, but the policy looks to be talking about first-time submitters. Requiring first-time endorsement here seems reasonable.

That said, other activities that are alleged, such as previous submitters being restricted (their status would have to be considered "non-active", else the policy of "Existing submitters will not require endorsement to submit papers on topics that they've been active in." should apply) and in particular papers being moved out of their specialty... those are a concern, in particular in the few cases for which they seem arbitrary, without means of redress and sometimes unilaterally punitive.

Here's what Eric and/or Hilton said for August, more pertinent to your question, Lyndon:

ACG said:

This month we make our first reference to a viXra paper. A quick review of the papers listed there reveals two things: Firstly, there has been an amazing growth in support for the site. At the time of going to press, there were 123 papers listed in 19 categories. Secondly, as may have been expected, there is a disappointing lack of professionalism and polish in many of the papers. Phil Gibbs is going to have to get on top of that if his archive is to be taken seriously.


Hilton's A Review of Anomalous Redshift Data is on there. Anything else interesting in there?
By Ari Jokimäki Date 2009-09-05 06:00
Hmm... Habble law??? (and it's not just a typo in the title, it's "Habble" throughout the paper).

We need peer review. This is not the way to go if one wants to maintain at least some level of credibility. If people really want to make science, then the proper scientific publication channels should be used. And there are some journals that do publish alternative stuff a lot, like Apeiron. Another thing is that the viXra has been designed as a lookalike to arXiv. I don't like that, it seems to be a cheap trick. They explain it in the "why vixra" page that it is supposed to be a parody. A parody? Are they going to do science or a comedy act?

Actually, even though I use arXiv a lot, I cannot help wondering what is the need for it. It would be ok if it would be used the way it is supposed to - as a preprint server, i.e. only for papers that have been accepted for publication. Now you get all kinds of non-peer reviewed papers there, and a lot of rubbish, too. But at least they have some kind of moderation there. Just wait and see what happens to the quality of vixra papers if it becomes popular site that accepts everything, woo-woos will be all over it.
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-09-05 19:57
Playing the Devils Advocate here, what is more important, peer review or promoting ones theories to the world?
In saying that ideas can only be published if other scientists allow it could be taken as an insult to the reader.
Can't we be trusted to make up our own minds as to whether something is of value or not? Why do i have to have someone deciding what I can or can not read?
This is the value of the internet. One can get one's ideas out there. Good or bad and let the people decide.
Two examples.
1) yesterday on the History channel was a whole thing on the Big bang and inflation. Programme was good but at the end it said something to the effect, "if you don't understand it don't worry. Thousands of the greatest scientific minds have looked into this and found it to be so. So it must be true!" Pass the sick bag! but that is what peer review brings about. Don't rock the boat. trust us.
2) This summer I was priviliged to go to International Space camp in Huntsville Alabama where we met all sorts of astronauts and lots of everything else. There was the top 50 teachers from the USA (one from each state) - how I got there I will never know but it was a great experience! Anyway, one night,  I was discussing whether the Universe was expanding or not and one of the top teachers said " but it must be expanding. These are clever guys who are telling us it is so". Peer review!

Before arXiv scientists wrote to each other. Lemaitre sent Einstein a letter with his ideas.
Einstein said lemaitre's maths was correct but his Physics was rubbish! so would Einstein have let Lemaitre publish?
No. Give me the Internet any day. Anyone can publish and the reader decides what is of value and what is not.
so i will probably send a couple of papers to vixra anyway.
to quote henry Ford - "there is no such thing as bad publicity" and that is what we guys are selling, our theories.
Cheers,
lyndon.
By Jade Annand Date 2009-09-06 06:03
Lyndon said:

Playing the Devils Advocate here, what is more important, peer review or promoting ones theories to the world?


It depends on what "important" means in this case. Also, "peer review", "promoting" and "the world".

I don't think what Ari was advocating was the current system whereby your paper can be rejected not just for matters of internal consistency and techniques, but also for mere subject domain prejudice/disagreement. I do think what he was recommending was tantamount to proofreading. Like putting out a company brochure rife with spelling mistakes, you can't look good with avoidable mistakes.

That said, we probably want to operate at different levels anyhow. I know that a few contributors here have more specific thoughts about singularities, relativity, geometry, redshift causes, etc. that I cannot necessarily "get behind" inasmuch as they make assertions I cannot agree with. That's fine. That includes even some more 'mainstream' alternatives like Arp & Narlikar's VMH. The complaint is often that there's nothing to substitute for Big Bang Theory, so we have to go with it and fix it even if it's flawed. You folks are impassioned that way, and any way you can get your message out is good.

Like so many other things, though, the more trusted the outlet, the more trusted the source.

(That can even work cynically, like that numbnuts William Dembski getting his paper into IEEE and then using that to claim the right to bash evolutionary theory based on the journal's prestige)

Lyndon said:

This is the value of the internet. One can get one's ideas out there. Good or bad and let the people decide.


Oh, no, no, no, no.

I understand what you're going for, but I have a few words:

• vaccinations
• evolutionary theory
• homeopathy

"The people" can decide that the first two are bad and the third is good, but that doesn't make them so. They do not have the background; it's not even a matter of intelligence in this regard.

Technically speaking, the public's trust in Big Bang Theory is going through "the right channels": the researchers. Researchers by and large think they're doing the right thing, the right way. There are some oppressed souls, surely, that are merely clamming up for fear of losing telescope time, but I do not think it is all that pervasive. They're far too busy reading tea leaves in the WMAP data and thinking they're finding clues to the first aeons of the universe, running simulations and doing gruntwork.

It's the researchers that ultimately need convincing, in the "high road" case. That's an interesting-enough challenge in itself. Are we, for example, at the point yet where we've got the observational power for a phenomenon that, in the attempt of disproof, researchers will come up empty-handed? Do we need to wait for the Webb? Better parallax measurements? It's a frustrating field where most everything must have its measure taken through a de facto interpretation.

You could also take the more dangerous road of taking the road show to the public, but that needs funding, and since we're not the mouthpieces of some political or religious bloc, that would be hard to come by... at least, unless you somehow managed to get the creationists interested in anti-mainstream information just because they like the thought of anything that might cause public confusion about science. You also end up much more open to blind spots - hoping you've noticed everything that could be directly picked on.

One thing I would be interested in is a composite of every one of 'our'* generally-solid claims contrasted with how the mainstream explained it. Like quasar ejection countered as background objects, or microlensing, or what have you (*I lay no claim; I'm riding on the coattails of those doing the real work), and what might confirm or deny the mainstream explanation, on until the mainstream explanations get iffy. I have no idea "where we are" overall nowadays, just a fair bit of the ground we have covered in past.

Anyhow, sorry for the rambling - it's late - but to summarize: there's a lot of stuff out there, and the public's got no reason they can think of to trust your stuff. So you get the freedom, but not the trust. How does that help?
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-09-06 19:31 Edited 2009-09-06 19:35
Don't get me wrong here, Peer review is nice to have.
For experimental results it is essential as we all have to make sure that our theories match these results.
Remember the double helix story, one of the reasons crick and watson made the great leap was that there was some erroneous published information. same with cosmology and the 'great debate' the guy who got it wrong relied on a colleague who allegedly (don't want to get sued) faked his results.
In this area, no one can complain of peer review as the mechanisms of data handling must be correct in order to be relied on. These papers can and do get published and into arxiv but this is not enough. Results must be reliable and therefore published in a peer reviewed journal.
But if experimental results or boring mundane papers can be published on arXiv without peer review but need it and theoretical ones don't get on arXiv because they are crank then what is the point of arXiv?
For me it is papers which challenge the interpretation of these results that cause the difficulty. OK I finally got mine published in a no page charge peer reviewed (MIT if i remember correctly) journal -i received one letter regarding my paper from a scientist in Greece - nice guy. And yes i was chuffed because it shows i am not a complete nutcase!
My website has just passed the half million mark.
So for me, the answer is: make sure that one's papers are as scientifically correct as one can with no 'hand waving.' keep presenting papers to scientific journals. Accept the criticism and respond to it by improving your paper.
but publish and be dammed on the internet. Publishing a book is good too.
But to be honest, i was surprised to see the negative comments regarding the new arXiv here. arXiv itself was not peer reviewed at first so why not this one?
What surprises me most is Halton Arp. How many times do we read that he can't get his work published and yet he is everywhere. He must be the most published unpublished scientist ever!
A long time ago, I recieved an e mail from a famous dissident giving me support. Attached to it was a paper (peer reviewed) done by some phsycho whatsits or other in which they had looked at all the Nobel prize winners to see what they had in common.
Was it a bigger brain - no.
Was it their priviliged background - no
Was it their education - no.
So what was it????
what do you think. let me know.
Cheers,
I'm about to have another paper rejected but who cares, Lyndon
(I do)
By Ari Jokimäki Date 2009-09-10 17:58
Good one on Arp. :)

There are people already using Internet as a tool to publish nonsense made to look scientific. Surely it would be nice if we would be able to just put our stuff out there without peer review when everybody would be honest about it, but that just gets spoiled by the people with agendas and other reasons to publish lies. That kind of system just doesn't work. I have wasted my time on enough nonsense to demand proper scientific material. Today that is done by peer review, which is not probably the best way and has its flaws, but it's currently part of the scientific process, so we just have to deal with it (and we can of course try to improve it). Peer review could be improved somewhat with quite simple means. One would be to pay the referees a fee so that they would be encouraged to do a good job.

You know, quite often I see a paper from some non-mainstream angle where conclusions have been made that are just too far reaching. I don't like that in a scientific paper. For example, let's say that you have some alternative theory, and you have wrote a paper that introduces some data that seems to support your theory. In that point I think the conclusion should read that "this data seems to support this theory", when in practise you sometimes see "this data proves this theory" or even worse. Now, should this paper be rejected for that too far reaching conclusion if the data is otherwise handled well?
By David Russell Date 2009-09-18 15:14
There are two very interesting reads by Dieter Gernert in the section on history and philosophy of physics.
By Jade Annand Date 2009-09-19 05:00
Those were pretty interesting - although in need of a bit of editing :)

"How to Reject Any Scientific Manuscript" sums up a number of things we've been talking about.
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-09-20 17:52 Edited 2009-09-21 05:19
Ok, To quote (wrongly) a line from Hello Dolly
Scientific papers (money in the original) are like manure. They should be spread around!
So i have sent my Hydrogen paper to Vixra. This is the one from the CCC2 procedings and is to be published in their procedings by ASP. I will include my Tired Light paper if I can find the original! (I only have the PDF from Galilean Electrodynamics.)

I have also sent the Hydrogen paper to World Science database.
http://www.worldnpa.org/php2/index.php?tab0=Scientists&tab1=Scientists&tab2=Display&id=399
The tired light paper was already there
Unfortunately (or fortunately) I can't get the photo to work. Don't know why.
Has anyone done or seen their video conferences?
Cheers,
Lyndon
edited to add: apologies, photo now sorted!
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-09-20 18:06
Wow!
That was quick I have been accepted.
http://vixra.org/abs/0909.0040
Now where is that tired light paper!
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-09-25 15:07
check out Nov 28th

http://www.worldnpa.org/php2/index.php?tab0=Events

Lyndon
By Jade Annand Date 2009-09-29 05:11
Dragging me out of bed on Saturdays at eight in the morning? Augh!

(Actually, I'm up by then these days, but I don't think I'll be able to get my 2-year-old to sit on my knee for the whole two hours in the morning :) Also, I'll have a 2-week old then... scheduled C-sections are almost creepy for knowing the date in advance)

That said, it looks like an interesting series of talks, with a metric pantload of them dedicated to tearing down relativity. Not so sure about the guy who figures computer science can be used for theoretical takedowns like that. Quite frankly, the biggest use of computer science to debunk things in physics is just due to the fact that scientists can write some pretty crappy programs, no slight to their other skills intended :)

Good to see you'll be doing the intriguing hydrogen cloud topic on November 28th there.

Is anyone going to be recording these things at all, out of curiosity?
By lyndonashmore Date 2009-10-09 18:58
Yes they are as it happens
http://www.worldnpa.org/php2/index.php?tab0=Events&tab1=Video_Conference_Recordings
By Jade Annand Date 2009-10-11 06:06
Egads, that's been going on for a while now!

Where on earth am I going to find 62 hours to take that all in? :)
Previous Next Up Topic Cosmology / Alternative Cosmology / new arxiv (12531 hits)

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